-6/12/10-

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-6/12/10-

Post by Lsmjudoka on Thu Jun 17, 2010 4:11 am

After looking at the Shini/Hollow differences, I realized that as the ranks progressed, the current difference calculations would lead to some major balance issues. So I've changed the difference to ~25%. Shini get ~25% more stats from training, Hollow get ~25% more stats from fighting.

-Content status update-
Shinigami spirit moves: Done
Shinigami melee moves: Done
Shinigami AI: Done(with help from Zyros: Thank him if you see him)

Hollow spirit moves: Done
Hollow melee moves: Done
Hollow AI: Done
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:51 pm

I doubt their need for equal 2 hour training. Active players would gain more than enough from AI and Spar

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Lsmjudoka on Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:50 pm

Indeed, but how many players are active all the time? The point is, almost everyone relies a fair amount on extended training. Having a Shini advantage to extended training is unfair.
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:48 am

as I said I believe they have more than enough to counter such a minor advantage. But you are the boss and since noone else has made an official complaint I wouldn't mind leaving it as it is...

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Lsmjudoka on Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:39 pm

If you can provide data to support that, I'll change it back.
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:31 am

deadpool...thats the same as saying that shini can be lazy and use the 2 hour training, it also means that hollows need to be active more then shini which just isnt possible for alo of people, lets not forget that we arent all kids or otaku that have nothing better to do then play on the net all day
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:59 am

If you ask me, it gives Hollows a way to be inactive until they need Activity Points to do it again.
I doubt if any Hollow even uses 10 minute trainings anymore, they're pretty much worthless.
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:47 am

erikai...the same can be said for shini...botom line is that whats good for one side is good for the other and vice versa with bad...and forcing one side to deal with a disadvantage like the 2hour training gains is harsh...specially since it allows one race to get stronger easier then the other
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:28 am

The way things are now the only advantage of shini is the 10 min training. which is 1/2 Stat points per 10 mins... I don't count heals as money are easily made trough AP. And hollows have better AI hunting and sparing. So as you say lazy people from both sides are equal(for the sake of comparison we leave them be) but actives which are supposed to be encouraged are better on hollow side with their 4 fights -> 5 gains and more than 4 AI are easily done at once (2-3 minutes at max) while shini training takes 10 minutes and training even on our side is worse than AI spam for growth. I don't count healing as the AP provide more than enough money for that.

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:40 am

my apologises deadpool, i did not realise you knew ALL of the gains and how UNEVEN they are..please forgive my ignorance
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:46 am

Deadpool is right. Shinigami get more from doing 10 minute trainings for 2 hours than they do performing only one 2 hour training.

In the beginning, I saw the Hollow Race to be a more "Hardcore" version of the game. Players had to be active to do anything worth while, and I warned every person I could before they made the change. Then what happened?

People complained and made a huge fuss. Marisa had proved the Hollow side to be effective just the way it was, before changes were made. So that clears the side for Hollows not being active and/or not having good training.

Now for the Shinigami, the original AP System was in place for them not coming online all the time (yes it was used for Hollows as well, but timed training "was" useless for them until now).

The the point of my original post was, you might as well delete all other Time Training for Hollows if you're going to keep the one Extended Equivalent for it, because it's totally useless now. And what I've seen so far is: "Whoever makes the biggest fuss, gets the best change."


Lsm edit
Hollows have:
Better Patrols/Devouring
Better Battle Gains

Shinigami have:
Better 10 minute trainings
Cheaper healing


Last edited by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:04 am

ok Erikai if i may...

the gains from the ai are what? .54 for hollows at the 4th rank? great ^_^...0.8 for a feeding? awesome...whatever else that makes hollowside good o.o brilliant.

im just curious to what the gains for the shini are...would you comply?
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:16 am

Let's also take note that I'm on Level 32 atm. (I take back that Higher Lucky Rate thing)

Spoiler:
Shinigami Patrols:
Regular- 0.6
Lucky- 1.8
Uber Lucky- 4.2 (Took me hours just to see what this was ^=.=^)

It might not seem like you guys get that much more, but you really do. Let's do some basic math.

Spoiler:
Level * 2 = AP Bag
32 * 2 = 64

AP Bag * One Hollow Devouring Gain= Devouring Gain in one General Stat
64 * 0.8 = 51.2

Devouring Gain in one General Stat * 5 = Total General Stat Gians from Devourings

51.2 * 5 = 256

Now let's change that with the Shinigami variables:

Level * 2 = AP Bag
32 * 2 = 64

AP Bag * One Shinigami Patrol Gain = Patrol Gain in one General Stat
64 * 0.6 = 38.4

Patrol Gain in one General Stat * 5 = Total General Stat Gians from Patrols

51.2 * 5 = 192


Here's a Battle Gain Logs from some AI Battles I just had. I'm not sure if this AI are the only ones I get on my level, but the AI's name are there (if Lsm wants to help clear things up).

Spoiler:
From Mutated Hollow Experiment AI
You win!
You gain 43 experience.
You get 1650 yen for winning.
You gain 0.43 Strength
You gain 0.43 Endurance
You gain 0.43 Speed
You gain 0.43 Intelligence
You gain 0.43 Willpower

From Runic Gillian AI
You win!
You gain 41 experience.
You get 1984 yen for winning.
You gain 0.41 Strength
You gain 0.41 Endurance
You gain 0.41 Speed
You gain 0.41 Intelligence
You gain 0.41 Willpower

And that's the regular AI Battle gains for those particular AI. I just glad that Lsm made it so we can't do more than one training type at the same time, or we might be screwed.


Last edited by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:06 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:29 am

you can get rid of that "might be" you would be screwed...but look on the brightside...alot of the hollows are lazy bums who wouldnt even think of trying to get gains...its in too small a package for them to think its worth their time ^_^

but i can see how inbalanced it is...but what about the trainings? sure our ai gains kicks yours dead but your gains for the 10mins would beat it easily or at least make it even per person training every 2 hours wouldnt it?
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:07 pm

Finally, someone got my point on why Hollows train so slowly with the original gain systems (they're lazy). But summer time is here, we haven't seen any sign of bratty, hyper kids running a muck, so you lazy people just assume that the trainings where unfair (I take that back, I've seen a few esp. for the Hollow side ^=.=^). Plus, from what Akiko showed me, it's epic easy for you guys to select an attack and use an auto refresher to get though your AI Kills. Shinigami can't do that, or at least I can't. (Has been changed)

Alright then, let's remember the Partrol/Devouring Gains we've just seen and do some math with the timed trainings.

Lets make a few notes:
Spoiler:
AP was originally put in place for inactive Shinigami
Timed Trainings only allow you to train one stat at a time (That Alone is a Disadvantage)
Most Shinigami will miss 1-5 minutes in between trainings on a regular
Some Shinigami have trouble getting AP that leads to them hustling for AP for an extra 2 minutes at the most
Active Gains are Twice as much as Inactive Gains
2 hours worth 10 Minute Trainings Coat more AP than just one 2 hour training

With Those Notes, lets make up a few common scenarios:

Spoiler:
Shinigami Logs in, trains, logs out and repeats until the time comes where they need AP
Shinigami focuses on being active for too long, they for get their training as some point

Now that you see that even with Battles, Hollows can trump Shinigami. But let's say that Shinigami who logs in and out all the darn time from, let's say their mobile phone, forgets to log in to do a ten min. train. They can forget about it from 1 min to an hour, if they're attention span is terrible. How much can you lose in an hour?

10 min / an hour = 6
6 * 20 Stat points = 120 Stats (only spent on one stat at a time)

SO! Let's jump back to Hollow AI Battles for a second:

Each Page load is 1.2 seconds (lets assume this is everyone's clicking speed)
Battle Timer for AI is around 5 seconds

Spoiler:
Click to start an AI Battle
1.2 seconds
Pick your Attack
1.2 seconds (No you don't have to wait for the page to load again, but I'm using 1.2 sec for clicking speed)
Submit attack
1.2 sec
F5 Enter
1.2
F5 Enter (If it takes you guys three shots to kill an AI like me)
5 second End (And Repeat)

That's 9.8 seconds for each gain! Maybe you can do it for 10 min at a time?

10min / 9.8 seconds = 98 Times

98 Times * 0.54 (I assume this is the normal battle gain for you guys on some AI) = 52.92 (Once again, that's only for one stat. Remember you get that in each general stat)

52.92 * 5 = 264.6 Total Stat Gains in 10 min, while SHINIGAMI ONLY GET 20 in one stat EVERY 10 MIN?!?!!?!? If they even remember to come back..

You guys can get 20 stats in all five generals way too easy.. Wont even take 10 min like it take for us just to get 20 in ONE STAT

From what we've seen on Partols vs. Devourings, Hollows can get hundreds more compared to Shinigami.. How lazy you lot are is just ridiculous. I'd trade my Shinigami Training with Any Hollow for theirs, but I like the title Shinigami so much (and so many Hollows get on my nerves) that I wont leave. ^=.=^

I feel that if we can't get more with our gains, we should at least have our lazy trainings to ourselves.. =\


Last edited by Erikai on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:18 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:28 pm

Lsm, or someone should make the spoiler-thingy(or whatever it's called) less contrasting with regular forum. Maybe yellow backround, blue/red text... it's bad for eyes as it is right now.

Other than that I totally agree with Erikai on distraction because you have nothing to do while training is a common problem. But I don't think hollows can spam that much AI fights at once too so the diff is less drastical but it is big nontheless.

EDIT(reply to Erikai's next post, I didn't want to overspam the topic): well, they are hollows as in empty Wink it's no wonder.

But seriously: Yeah wehn I started playing I got the impression that the game concentrated on active players. An inability for majority of one side to be active isn't a reason for them to get uber boosts.


Last edited by Deadpool on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:32 pm

I also also added something, in about the "Hollows Have no attention span too". Many people might not have noticed it in the past.

EDIT Reply to Deadpool's EDIT Replay xD: I totally agree, some hyper active kid is gonna hop on and dominate the entire game. Because some people have a "Life" and can't soar like the people who don't have a life.. Most games are supposed to bend to the will of the people who are active, not the lazy.
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:43 pm

i;d agree with most of what erikai...but deadpools just annoying me so i'll this instead

letting one side have a lazy training and the other side a more active training makes it unfair for those who are more active on one side and less active on the other...if you wanna get rid of this inbalance then simply make it the same...then you wont have little snots crying about inbalance

now complain about my solution
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:46 pm

I wanted that from the start, but Lsm wanted to make them different.. *Shrugs*
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:47 pm

its a historical day...erikai and myself actually agree on a point...im totally blown away
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:27 am

you know, I didn't choose the nickname for absolutely no reason Wink And I'd mostly agree to your solution. Still it's the bosses call and having absolutely no diff will be kinda boring.

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Erikai on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:10 am

Yeah it is his call, and if things don't balance out according to numbers (and not people's feelings), then most people will become Hollow and/or inactive from frustration. And I, for one, and highly frustrated that I'm one of the most active people and I'm going to be handicapped against most inactive Hollows.. Because they're lazy.

If I happen to become Hollow by sudden impulse, no one will be happy.. ^=.=^
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Deadpool on Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:41 am

I dislike the option for changing race. If one want to explore the other race he should do as lostertu(whatever) now known as krisnik and start over. Even if it is not rebalanced I would still remain Shini and will be as active as I can. As I mentioned before I mostly like the role-playin' rather than being stronger and stuff in something that is really just lots and lots of lines of code ^^

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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by oz_11 on Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:21 am

to each their own...to be honest i really dont care what lsm does...whether the shini or hollows have an advantage or whether he makes them the same there will always be litle babies crying about unfairness with and without due reason or evidence
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Re: -6/12/10-

Post by Lsmjudoka on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:55 am

The problem with your case is that you're basing it strictly on time and AP. In reality, AP is determined by how active you are. If anything, Shinigami have an advantage because they generally hold Kyoto atm.

Battles and patrols are actually limited by your pools, and your regeneration rate. Average regen in 10 minutes(given rank 3):

700 spirit energy/stamina(1400 pools total)

No theoretical way to get in 100 battles in 10 minutes, that would require a move that kills the AI in one hit and only requires 14 pools to do so. Current lowest costing move = 30. Depending on the AI(Level 32) 5-7 hits to kill. 150 - 210 pools. And keep in mind that taking 5-7 turns costs you quite a bit of health, which isn't free to replace. Regardless, that would limit you to ~7-10 battles per 10 minutes.


EDIT: Tweaked calculations to assume user has no capped stats and is actually getting 0.42/0.5 in every stat. Tweaked the Hollow gains to 0.5 instead of 0.58(To make it actually 25%)

Given an average gain at level 32 of 0.42 for Shini and 0.50 for Hollow:

0.42 * 5 = 2.1
0.50 * 5 = 2.5

Shini: 14.7 - 21
Hollow: 17.5 - 25

Add training gains from 10 minutes of training(presumably while you regen):

Shini: 34.7 - 41 (Average: 37.85)
Hollow: 33.5 - 41 (Average: 37.25)


For further amusement, let's stretch this out to two hours and see how it matches with extended.

Shini: 37.85 * 12 = 454.2
Hollows: 37.25 * 12 = 447
Extended: 200

In terms of exp:
Shini: 9084
Hollow: 8940
Extended: 4000


Example #2(Patrols vs. Devour Hollows):

Pool cost: 600
Regen: 1400
Patrols/Devours per 10 mins: 2.2

0.6 * 5 = 3
0.8 * 5 = 4

Shini: 2.2 * 3 = 6.6
Hollow: 2.2 * 4 = 8.8

Shini stats(10 mins): 26.6
Hollow stats(10 mins): 24.8

This would seem to state Hollows are at a slight disadvantage. Which possibly could be balanced with the improved gains from spars.


Last edited by Lsmjudoka on Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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