How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

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How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:25 am

What the heck are you babbling about?
Why, nothing other than: Increased variation and uniqueness in range shapes and sizes.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Break it down or go away plz.

Actually, I figure you do have some idea, and even already have this planned because it /must/ have occurred to you that there's hardly any range diversity; just range BOOSTS. Currently, most moves are square or linear, which is just plain anti-strategic and Web 1.0 in the game department. PvP itself has the code makings of greatness, namely moving attacks and being able to attack in different directions. The next logical step is to create a much greater diversity in range SHAPES, which as of now are mostly cookie cutter and contribute to souped up moves with the same exact range (which is not a good thing).

Hey! No! You shut your mouth!

Whoa there! It would bring a new level of diversity to PvP and will work especially well with obstacles. Say you're using a lightning ability which has a lightning shaped range because you listened to me and went about coding this right after you coded obstacles. Well, unless some obstacles are breakable (which is another cool idea! You're welcome) , that Z-shaped range could play a big role in positioning yourself near the obstacle for cover while using a uniquely shaped range to best your opponent. See what just happened here? PvP just got a whole lot more strategic.

I don't buy it. How does it benefit us?

Well I've already touched on it, but I'll revisit it in one word: STRATEGY! Because WoB uses a grid in battle, its capacity--and, dare I say, NEED--for strategy is far greater than that of games like TNR. To reach true potential, we literally have to think outside the box. Sorry for the pun, but the majority of current moves are nothing more than boxes--some linear, and some rectangular. Well, that square by square grid is capable of much more! I assure you. And I, for one, have a vision; I see PvP positioning becoming /much/ more strategic with the introduction of creative and unique ranges.

It's about the fun, man. Think of the children!

Well... how the heck am I supposed to come up with these ranges?

Why, I'm glad you ask. You don't have to do it by yourself, you know; I have tons of ideas, As do your own users. Between us, we shall concoct nothing short of a recipe for strategy and fun! The answer is simple. Don't get caught up by the how do's and can not's; that's the enemy of progress. Once we agree on working to implement this, I will pour everything out on the table.

I don't want to code it; too much work/too lazy. You're just a dreamer.

Yes, and? I have ambition. I see clearly what a polished WoB looks like. I've intricately painted the big picture within the brightest corners of my mind. This is one facet, one step that will bring us closer to that greatness.

"Don't believe in yourself. Believe in the me, who believes in you!" - Kamina.

Note: Don't post here unless you're saying something of constructive substance, which means NO:

  • Derp.
  • I agree!
  • I disagree!
  • Too complex!
  • You're dumb!
  • You're a genius!
  • SPIDERMAN THREAD!
  • This would be great!
  • This will ruin the game!
  • I love you Limitless! Marry me!
  • People will love this!
  • People won't love this!
  • I know this is off topic, but...
  • Or anything close to what's listed here.

Don't do it. I don't want this thread to be stifled by lack of substance and contribution. You shouldn't make these kinds of unconstructive posts in Suggestion threads as it is! Thanks in advance.


Last edited by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by neji2k on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:41 am

oh pssh plz give me and take some credit for this Wink but i agree with this idea if lsm ever has the time i hope he takes this into consideration as well as the other WOB staff

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by lyonin on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:14 am

We had a move like that for the hollows... People complained about the range... If we make a bunch of different range styles, people will complain about not having this, or wanting to add that... At least that is what I think, but I am not behind what is finalized so...

Pros: Much more strategy

Cons: People WILL complain...
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:24 am

lyonin wrote:We had a move like that for the hollows... People complained about the range... If we make a bunch of different range styles, people will complain about not having this, or wanting to add that... At least that is what I think, but I am not behind what is finalized so...

Pros: Much more strategy

Cons: People WILL complain...

Well, let's think about it. Why didn't that work?

I say it was because Shinigami were stuck with box ranges. Obviously you can't get fun with one race's movepool and leave the other race out! A balance must be struck, both in the effectiveness and creativity of moves, so that neither race has a leg up on the other.

If we all think this through, I don't think we will experience the level of complaints you seem to anticipate. But complaints aren't bad anyway; to an extent, it will tell us what is concerning the players and an informed decision can be made of how to adjust accordingly.
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Lsmjudoka on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:39 am

I see a lot of this "This is why this should be done", "This is why this would be cool", "This is why such-and-such problem isn't a problem", but not a lot about "This".

^Fix that

P.S. Browser games didn't exist in Web 1.0 -- Rethink analogy?
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Ezoroth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:30 am

You have to think about it, though. It would be incredibly fun. Also why not have it to where every few levels of that move the range of the attack increases by uniqueness to the pattern. So the lightning shaped move could get maybe another section of points added to it.

Or maybe like the double Cero attack that I've seen. Why not make it to where the attack is one block from both sides of the character that go forward, and then meet in the middle with a square/sphere in front of that.

(Basically let me make a grid like thing. Every _ is a non attacked square, whilst -- is where it hits. Player is O)

--|--|--
--|--|--
_|--|_
--|_|--
_|O|_

Or something like that. (First thing I can think of)

All of the moves do seem a bit, annoying. They're all repetitive other than the silly damage that they do. Why not add diversity to the moves? Of course there will be complaints due to people getting used to the boxes, but they can easily adapt.

Also new player will be more interested in the strategic influence it would have. You can't just run in and have high damage now, you have to actually have decent position and take in consideration that the enemy might be able to counter you with a certain move pattern that they have. Maybe give each move a set of different patterns, like three patterns and you can choose one to use in battle. (Equip FTW?) or maybe you can select a move twice in Equip but both have a different pattern.

So many things that you can do with this. Also the idea of whenever a move levels (Like every ten levels of a move) it gets an extra square (or amount of squares) unique to its pattern would be pretty fun, because at the lower levels, there's really no point of maxing your moves other than for damage, but then again it still doesn't matter for the damage because of how fast you move on through the levels and rank up. Atleast if you level up lower moves it'll have some kind of use against higher level attacks. (Creates balance when you think about it. Whenever you have a level 100 of one move and still get dominated by a level 1 of a different move. Very annoying.)

Also, seeing as we're talking about PVP, why not make all fights with a grid (Even Arena fights)?

I really would like that xD
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Legend on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:03 am

Well we did have x.5s but certain things as all players not having them or people with range boost kinda killed it. If you had a 3.5 you could pretty much just play hit and run (if the other player doesn't have one). I like the idea for unique shapes and such maybe like the setup on Disgaea is I would love to have attack space shaped like a heart XD

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:15 am

Problem: Range boost.

A major problem when it comes to diversity in ranges. If range boost was eliminated (major complaints, wah wah, customs) or if it could be made so it affects only zan/ress moves (doubt it's do'able), there could be diversity. A cross-shaped move is hardly cross-shaped anymore when you add 1-3 squares in length, nor does it provide any of the much needed strategy this suggestion is about.

Could leave range-boosts in customs only, and take it out from all other zans/resses.

Although, we could also go along with "survival of the fittest" WoB-style. Those with range prevail, whereas those who don't can run for their lives. At lower ranks there'd be strategic fights whereas at higher ranks it'd be back to first-hit-wins...

As for the balance between races, mirroring is the key.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Legend on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:13 am

Take away Range Boost along with Movement Boost. Movement can pretty much only be counter with range boost. Ian has a 9.3 due to HSM boosting his movement. Where Range Boost has a max hit range of 8.3. Get rid of both and that would fix the problem but then again people will complain.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:17 am

Mhmm, and customs that have range boost are a problem: Users have paid a hefty sum of money for them, so they'd be entitled to keep their range boosts.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Legend on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:25 am

Yeah true main thing thats on a custom is normally range boost.. Biggest thing to counter range boost would be the obstacles on the grid.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:11 pm

Lsmjudoka wrote:1) I see a lot of this "This is why this should be done", "This is why this would be cool", "This is why such-and-such problem isn't a problem", but not a lot about "This".

^Fix that

2) P.S. Browser games didn't exist in Web 1.0 -- Rethink analogy?

1) Of course! Here's one inspiration:

Which brought me to le rough Infernal Snare concept:



More than just a three by three box, yet made FROM boxes. I'd say the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

2) Web 1.0 was unrefined, but still a fundamental base. What I mean is that we have the foundations already; they just need to be built on and polished. The concept of the grid itself limitlessly supports more creativity than all-encompassing blocks; that's exactly why WoB is absolutely genius.

3) There is no three to respond to, as you've just noticed, but I apologize for not mentioning something in my original post; it was kind of hurried. Anyway, this approach would likely be complemented by expanding the grid again.

What would expanding the grid solve? We already did that, Limit.

  • For starters, it would help to diminish the overpowered range problem that we might see in higher levels.

  • Earlier levels don't care either way, because /all/ their battles are fought in close range, and thus they are unaffected by anything related to the grid size.

  • Thirdly, this would solve the overpowered range issue without taking away the range that players have already worked/paid for. They deserve to keep their current ranges, and as Chi's own range showed me in our spar, a larger grid won't do much in the way of watering down their present ranges. Considering obstacles are going to be placed, that grid is going to feel a lot smaller in the future as it is.

4) Like some users have posted (thanks for being constructive, by the way! I appreciate it!), Evolving moves would also be an interesting idea. Suddenly, if moves had to be trained to specific levels before improving, we no longer have players weaving an intricate fire blast radius and vaporizing their enemies five seconds after they learned it. But I digress, this should be taken step by step.

Please keep discussing, you guys. You're definitely pushing us to a conclusion. Great job! Your constructive feedback is key. As long as we keep on topic, we'll get there.
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:50 pm

As reference to what I and Legs have been discussing, what the "Snake" would look like with range boost...:

Red is first release, blue is second release.


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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Chiharu wrote:As reference to what I and Legs have been discussing, what the "Snake" would look like with range boost...:

Red is first release, blue is second release.


Thanks for that!

Although personally I think filling in every single square in the area of that move (or every "new" move) is counterproductive to the entire positioning strategy I'm trying to bring into reality. Reason being: the whole idea behind getting original with shapes is so that positioning can be both accented and creative, which is why in my first example I left out several squares. If, after everything is said and done, we're still going to negate the effects of good positioning, the entire concept falls apart and we get more of the same.

I believe that every move being all-encompassing is against the uniformity I'd like to break free from.

Specifically, the diversity doesn't just make fancy new moves. It makes positioning something to be considered more in-depth, which is what I mean by "it will improve strategy".
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Although personally I think filling in every single square in the area of that move (or every "new" move) is counterproductive to the entire positioning strategy I'm trying to bring into reality. Reason being: the whole idea behind getting original with shapes is so that positioning can be both accented and creative, which is why in my first example I left out several squares.
I know, I'm not too sure if you read what was said above though, other than Lsm's post, but ah well.

I am aware of what you're seeking for with the innovative range ideas of yours, yet I posted that as an example of why they have not been added as of yet. Hence the coloured squares that effectively screw up the ideal range. Yet, that is how range boost currently works and if it's to be kept, it's to be taken into consideration.

It also somewhat emphasizes how problematic range boost is/may become if it already isn't.

Note: For those with customs and who can't be arsed to read several posts above, it's been suggested that range boost becomes available only for customs.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:07 pm

Chiharu wrote:
Although personally I think filling in every single square in the area of that move (or every "new" move) is counterproductive to the entire positioning strategy I'm trying to bring into reality. Reason being: the whole idea behind getting original with shapes is so that positioning can be both accented and creative, which is why in my first example I left out several squares.
I know, I'm not too sure if you read what was said above though, other than Lsm's post, but ah well.

I am aware of what you're seeking for with the innovative range ideas of yours, yet I posted that as an example of why they have not been added as of yet. Hence the coloured squares that effectively screw up the ideal range. Yet, that is how range boost currently works and if it's to be kept, it's to be taken into consideration.

It also somewhat emphasizes how problematic range boost is/may become if it already isn't.

Note: For those with customs and who can't be arsed to read several posts above, it's been suggested that range boost becomes available only for customs.

Yes I did, but I guess I mistook that particular issue for something else. My apologies; as you can probably infer, I'm the big picture type who puts parts together into a perspective. The details of those parts isn't exactly my forte, particularly with a game mechanic that I've not fully organically experienced, but I try nonetheless.

Can you be more concise with how range boost works? Does it involve a formula that expands every range the same way by X amount of squares in a linear fashion? Are you saying that range boost, as it's currently coded, would not support controlled and specific placing of the AoE (i.e. omitting squares from range)? If not, wouldn't the increased range be solved by a larger grid?


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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Legend on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:13 pm

I'd say keep it on customs and S-ranks but thats my opinion. What about movement would it be custom only? Or will it still be allowed on all?

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:25 pm

I'd say keep it on customs and S-ranks but thats my opinion. What about movement would it be custom only? Or will it still be allowed on all?

Dunno about movement. Prolly be cut away just like range since it can be increased with speed and HSM anyhow...

Can you be more concise with how range boost works? Does it involve a formula that expands every range the same way by X amount of squares in a linear fashion? Are you saying that range boost, as it's currently coded, would not support controlled and specific placing of the AoE (i.e. omitting squares from range)? If not, wouldn't the increased range be solved by a larger grid?

I myself am not too familiar with how it's been coded, but I believe I can say this much (Lsm's free to correct me): As it is now, it's not possible to omit certain moves from not being affected by range boost (which leads to not being possible to omit certain squares).

Increasing the grid leads to a problem with the layout, which could be solved with making the cells bigger - ...but the grid already is quite big and making the cells smaller could, at worst, make the current 13x11 grid into a 26x22 if the cells were halved. Plenty of room to roam about with little to no alterations to the layout width.

Rather than tinkering with the sizes: natural obstacles, really. Those we need if we are to add different kinds of ranges, and in general as well.

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Ezoroth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Well, how about for the range boost just add a certain pattern to it, not effecting the actual squares. Or maybe it'll copy the pattern and add it to the end of it. (Not the whole pattern, just a piece of it.)

Also wouldn't it just take another few lines of coding or whatever in order for it to create a pattern of squares that ISN'T effected by the attacks range? Also obstacles would be GREAT with a larger grid, because with a small grid there wouldn't be many of them.

Next ideas that I have to add to this one, moves that you can control the path. You know how in the series they'd be able to control the direction of certain attacks? Now I'm not saying ALL attacks should be like this, only certain ones. Like say you have an attack that has high range, but the pattern isn't really effective. Why not then have it to where however high of a level you are with that attack you can control the path with however many squares. Like at level 20 of said attack you can control the path one (Meaning you can't control it until you level it to 20) square every turn, and say it's a range of six forward and it has 12 blocks total (that means the pattern has two squares per line it goes at the target.) You can control the path so that it can follow the target, using a certain eqaution (Say x = total amount of squaress, y = ending square limit. y = x - x/3, seeing as the total is 12 it would then be y = 12 - 12/3, which would become y = 12 - 4, which means y = 8.) that could even it out. If the number doesn't turn up as a whole number than round it up (y = 17 - 17/3. y = 17 - 5.66. y = 17 - 6. y = 11)

Then attacks that you can use, but don't take effect until after a set amount of turns. (Attacks fired into the air that does area damage at a certain area the player has pre-selected after say, three turns? Like an explosive kido shot into the air.)

Explosive attacks, whenever shot at the opponent they'll stop when they hit the opponent or they'll keep going until they either hit the opponent or they meet range maximum, where it'll explode and create a sphere of both AoE damage and then do damage from the explosion itself.
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Haruchi on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:07 pm

Also wouldn't it just take another few lines of coding or whatever in order for it to create a pattern of squares that ISN'T effected by the attacks range?

Facepalm in Lsm's stead.

As for the controllable direction and whatnot... Some things are best to be kept simple, especially when the system is at a battle grid-base. You must keep the limitations of this kind of system in mind. I also don't see how exactly one is supposed to control the path. If it's the equation, I yield. Math isn't my strongest subject, sensibility is.

Yes, it would be nice if this worked with a Flash-base/MMO-base and was able to do things those bases allow to, but it doesn't.

Then attacks that you can use, but don't take effect until after a set amount of turns. (Attacks fired into the air that does area damage at a certain area the player has pre-selected after say, three turns? Like an explosive kido shot into the air.)

Explosive attacks, whenever shot at the opponent they'll stop when they hit the opponent or they'll keep going until they either hit the opponent or they meet range maximum, where it'll explode and create a sphere of both AoE damage and then do damage from the explosion itself.

These two ideas (let's call them Timed/Charge attacks) have been suggested before ages ago if memory serves. And not accepted for one reason or another.

The former: The ranges would have to be kept relatively small (3.3, square is nice for a ''bomb'', which naturally will become 6.3 with range boost - yes, I am keen to bring it up over and over...). They would be fairly...useless considering how much is dependant on opponent's movements. When they are 'launched'/'fired', the opponent will know there's a timed attack coming and will move aside. Of course, succesful avoidance of the attack requires some gambling, but the chances are he/she is succesfull at dodging it.

The latter: Is this another 'timed' attack that takes effect after few turns? Or "travels" across the grid (much like AI's in Survival battles)? Same as above really...

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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Ezoroth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:22 pm

As for the controllable direction and whatnot... Some things are best to be kept simple, especially when the system is at a battle grid-base. You must keep the limitations of this kind of system in mind. I also don't see how exactly one is supposed to control the path. If it's the equation, I yield. Math isn't my strongest subject, sensibility is.

Easy way to control, every turn that goes by they just select the next square for it to go to. (Has to be in the radius of the last square, obviously.) It's extremely simple and I don't think that it would be hard to script. (Shouldn't be, it's just like moving but instead you're controlling the attack.)

These two ideas (let's call them Timed/Charge attacks) have been suggested before ages ago if memory serves. And not accepted for one reason or another.

Oops, sorry if it was xD I don't recall that :P

The former: The ranges would have to be kept relatively small (3.3, square is nice for a ''bomb'', which naturally will become 6.3 with range boost - yes, I am keen to bring it up over and over...). They would be fairly...useless considering how much is dependant on opponent's movements. When they are 'launched'/'fired', the opponent will know there's a timed attack coming and will move aside. Of course, succesful avoidance of the attack requires some gambling, but the chances are he/she is succesfull at dodging it.

Well, the ranges wouldn't have to be small. (However why a square? Spheres would be more interesting since we're in this therad. Also range boost, why does it have to effect only one side?) They could be used to control the direction you want the opponent to go, say you want him to move into a stronger attack. Now it should make sense. Also the opponent can know, but he still has a chance of moving right into it, or into another attack from the opponent. You might think it's useless, but I think that it's bloody brilliant and very easily can it be used for strategical use.

The latter: Is this another 'timed' attack that takes effect after few turns? Or "travels" across the grid (much like AI's in Survival battles)? Same as above really...

Well, how I was thinking of it was that explosive attacks would go towards the opponent (Say 4 squares every turn, so that it wouldn't be extremely easy to dodge.) and that the explosion would be pretty decent so that you can still hit the opponent if they happen to move out of the range, but not too big to where the player has to move to halfway in between landing point and the other player. Or they just act like a normal attack except that (Like moving) they stop whenever hitting an opponent, but with the added effect of an explosion. (And maybe AoE? :D)
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Lsmjudoka on Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:58 am

About Coding Difficulty
The data objects are 3,106 lines of code, and the core battle engine is 6,137 lines of code, including intricately stacked logical expressions inside loops, running analysis to determine paths and such. Making structural changes to how moves work is not really simple, one small change = one change modified 8 different ways, and a small mistake on any one of these will mess it up. So these things aren't really that simple to code. If you still believe it is, you're welcome to code it~

Controlling the entire path of your attack is a no -- The complexity of changing the system, confusion and additional actions required(7 selections to use one attack if the range is 6 squares?) make it not practical.


Back to the original idea
It seems the primary idea is to make attacks skip certain squares in a pattern -- which is feasible. And I can see how that might make things more interesting... I won't rule it out atm, but there are a lot of considerations including range that need to be taken into account. Additionally I'm not sure if the benefit compared to the effort is enough to put this over several other things on the list. It would take coding to track if a square was skipped the last turn, and significant structural changes to set what patterns can be allowed and make sure admins can set them correctly. As well as coding to track the overall pattern, which could get complex given moves of varying ranges/widths. But I do have an idea or two for adding some change to the battles, which are on my list of things to code.

Bottom line: I'm not saying no, it'll be considered, but don't hold your breath.








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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

Post by Limitless on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:52 am

I'll take it at that. Thanks for formally hearing this idea out, I know it's been tossed around before I came here. I was just the voice who spoke it on record.
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Re: How 'bout some DIVERSITY~

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